This is an audio transcript of the Rachman Review podcast episode: ‘Trump sets his sights on Gaza property deal’
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Gideon Rachman
Hello and welcome to The Rachman Review. I’m Gideon Rachman, chief foreign affairs commentator of the Financial Times. This week’s podcast is about the Middle East. My guests are the president of Iraq, Abdul Latif Rashid, and Andrew England, the FT’s Middle East editor.
President Trump has astonished the Middle East and the world with his proposal that the US will, quote, take over the Gaza Strip. But given the disastrous history of American intervention in the Middle East, is there any chance of Trump’s Gaza plan happening? For many Americans and Arabs, the Iraq war remains a bitter memory and an object lesson in the folly of western intervention in the Middle East. When I met President Rashid of Iraq a couple of weeks ago, I found he took a different view.
Abdul Latif Rashid
No, we don’t think it was a mistake because the entire population of Iraq want to get rid of the regime and we seek the help and assistance of international community, including European countries Britain, France, Germany. And at the same time, it’s as far as we are concerned, getting rid of Saddam Hussein or overthrowing Saddam was absolutely necessary for Iraq and for the region.
Gideon Rachman
We’ll be hearing more from the Iraqi president a bit later in the show. But we’re starting this week with the Trump proposals on Gaza. I start my conversation with Andrew England by asking him if he thinks Trump’s idea has any chance of getting off the ground.
Andrew England
No. You’ve got to assume not. I mean, it seems a completely crazy idea. I mean, firstly, you’d be in violation of international law. Just forcibly resettling Gazans, which Trump was talking about even before he announced taking over Gaza, would be in violation of international law and seen by many in the region as ethnic cleansing. It would recall memories of 1948 when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians were displaced when Israel declared independence and there was a war. To Arabs that was a catastrophe. So just that element is very hard to see. And then if you talk about the US taking over the Palestinian territory, potentially putting US troops on the ground, as Trump said he would if necessary, it brings up echoes of the US’s disastrous intervention in Iraq in 2003. Logistically, how would you do it? Who would pay for it? The Arab world, western allies, the global south would be up in arms. It just seems absolutely crazy.
Gideon Rachman
Did you pick up any hint that this was in the works?
Andrew England
No, not this. We had picked up hints that after the election, Trump was talking to Arab leaders about the possibility of resettling Palestinians from Gaza. But it wasn’t really taking that seriously. I mean, again, you’re dealing with Trump, this unpredictable guy who says a lot of things. What’s real, what’s not? Does he really understand the nuances of the Middle East, the complexities of the Middle East? Is he always negotiating a deal or thinking about a deal? So people didn’t really take it seriously. And then in the last couple of weeks, he started talking about the need to clean out Gaza. Horrible language. And again, Arab states rejected the idea. They reject any notion of the forcible displacement of Palestinians that has so many scars in Arab history.
The legacy is so toxic in Arab history of Palestinians being displaced from their land. And essentially, you know, that’s the root of the Arab-Israeli conflict is over land and people being displaced. So there’s no way they could countenance it. So obviously, we can’t dismiss it. But he is a character, a leader who is belligerent. He’s a bully, and he does use strange negotiating tactics where he looks to raise the stakes and then perhaps try and use that to broker the kind of deals he wants. I think what was so extraordinary, you know, did this at the White House in front of the world’s cameras with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at his side.
Gideon Rachman
What do you think Netanyahu thought? I mean, obviously, you had to be polite about it and said, you know, out-of-the-box thinking, but he must think this is crazy even. I mean, he may have his own plans. He certainly has people in his cabinet who would like to annex Gaza or bits of it. But the idea that America would take it over and kind of turn it into a beach resort is bizarre.
Andrew England
Well, absolutely. But it is kind of interesting. You watch Netanyahu. He was almost trying to hide the smirk on his face. Look, I think from the beginning, Arabs and Palestinians have been concerned that Netanyahu and his far-right government — and this is the most extreme government in Israel’s history — wanted to make Gaza uninhabitable after Hamas’s horrific October the 7th attack in 2023. And they would want to push Palestinians across the border into Egypt. Now, the Israeli government would deny that, but that’s been the concern. I mean, look, for years there’s been talk in Americans and Israelis, you know, Gaza could be Dubai, it’s on the Mediterranean coast. It just needs developing this kind of thing. You know, if you’re a far-right Israeli politician, you don’t envisage that, including Palestinians. We have to remember Gaza is this tiny, narrow strip on the Mediterranean. It’s one of the most densely populated places in the world. For 14 months, it’s been bombed from the land, sea and air pretty much every day since Hamas’s attack on Israel. It’s a totally shattered wreck.
Gideon Rachman
So let me then play devil’s advocate. So Trump is right when he says it’s a totally shattered wreck. And I have heard conservative Arabs say in private, well, maybe, you know, they’d be better off if they moved to Egypt, although that is a completely toxic idea in the sort of Arab discourse. But aren’t the alternatives also a bit unreal? I mean, I saw Keir Starmer saying the two-state solution. I mean, we’ve been saying that for 45 years. Do we think the other proposals, the traditional proposals are really that much more realistic than what Trump’s going on about?
Andrew England
Well, I think we have to start and remember that Palestinians, Gazans, they see this territory as their home. These are people who’ve built their lives there. They’ve been there for generations. Many are descendants of those that were displaced in 1948. They will want to rebuild. They don’t want to be constantly resettled. You know, there’s hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees living overseas. And it’s one of the most sensitive points of the whole Arab-Israeli conflict because they want the right to go home. Of course, some Gazans will want to move and would want to try and build a new life outside of the territory, but a hell of a lot of people, they would want to stay. They do see it as the home. Now, it’s going to take a humongous effort to get anything close to a two-state solution across the line.
But then we have to ask ourselves, what are the alternatives? Because OK, you clear out Gaza. What do you do with the occupied West Bank? What do you tell the Palestinians? What does that do for those who want to pursue a militant ideology against Israel, like Hamas, who say they are fighting for the rights of the people who’ve lost their land, who justify their attacks, their killings, etc, because of the occupation? There’s no way that you’re going to be able to secure the peace that Israel wants, desires justifiably, and the Palestinians want if Palestinians are constantly pushed off the land. And no one is addressing the root causes of this conflict.
Gideon Rachman
So I mean I’ll end with the most difficult question of all. What do you think is going to happen next?
Andrew England
I think you’re going to have a string of Arab leaders and foreign ministers heading to Washington. We know that the Qatari prime minister is going there this week. The Saudi foreign minister is going. King Abdullah of Jordan is going next week. I think they will try and talk sense into Trump. I think Trump will come back at them and say, OK, you need to take responsibility for Gaza. You need to ensure that Hamas never rules again. You need to foot the bill for the reconstruction in Gaza. Then there’s a question of whether there can be any movement on the American plan to have Saudi Arabia normalise relations with Israel, which has always been the grand prize for Netanyahu because of Saudi Arabia’s significance in the Muslim world. And for Trump, if he wants a grand bargain for the Middle East, and he talked about this in his first term and he’s talked about it again this time.
Gideon Rachman
And indeed, the Biden people.
Andrew England
Well, exactly. They were pursuing it. They were very close before the October 7th attack. Now, the question is Mohammed bin Salman, the Saudi crown prince de facto leader, has been very clear in recent months that Saudi Arabia cannot agree to any peace of Israel unless the establishment of a Palestinian state. That’s not necessarily because Prince Mohammed believes that that’s viable or possible, but there’s a clear awareness of the outrage that’s spread across the Arab population, particularly the younger generation, which is his main constituency, Arabs across the region on social media, watching Al Jazeera, watching the pummelling of Gaza. And that’s educated a whole generation about the Palestinian cause, the Palestinian question, occupation. And so pre-October the 7th, Mohammed bin Salman could have paid less attention to that now. I think he and other Arab leaders are very, very conscious of that anger and the risks attached to that, to their own stability and to their own security. So it’s going to be very, very hard to see how that deal gets across the line. But you’ve got to hope that Trump does want some kind of grand bargain. And if he does, then you’re going to hope that means pressing Israel to make some serious concessions towards a Palestinian state. Now, with Netanyahu’s rightwing government, that seems totally impossible. Everything seems a long shot at the moment. If that fails or if that doesn’t make progress, then the other fear is that Trump could greenlight Israel’s annexation of the West Bank, which would be another combustible act thrown into the mix.
Gideon Rachman
And then, of course, coming back to Gaza, there is a ceasefire, but the Israelis are already talking about going back to war. Is that actually quite a likely outcome?
Andrew England
Yes, it probably is. And we thought that when the deal was initially inked. I mean, it’s a multiphase deal. And the first phase was to last for six weeks and 33 hostages, including women, the elderly and the wounded, had to be released in exchange for Palestinian prisoners. And that was always going to be the easy. But the second phase, which is supposed to begin in a couple of weeks, that would require Israeli troops to withdraw from Gaza fully and for discussions on a permanent end to the war. And Netanyahu has made clear from the outset that he doesn’t want to pull Israeli troops out of Gaza and he doesn’t want a permanent end to the war and he wants the right to return to striking Hamas in Gaza.
And I think the optics over the last couple of weeks where you’ve seen Hamas militants in uniforms, weapons driving GMC’s, four-wheel drives, crowds of people around them, it kind of shows that rather than being destroyed, they’re still there, they’re still present. They still have a military presence. That’s had an impact on the Israeli psyche as well. After all this, Hamas is still in Gaza. That puts pressure on Netanyahu. His far-right allies in his ruling coalition. Smotrich, the finance minister, have been very clear that if they don’t go back to war in the second phase, he will pull out. That would leave Netanyahu with a minority government. So there’s already a lot of domestic pressure on Netanyahu to go back to war. And I think now, you know, after yesterday’s performance with Trump, he looked pretty confident. And after that, then he was pretty clear that he will go back to war. So, you know, the mediators will hope that they’ll get the first phase done, that there may be a gap between the first and the second phase, but they’ll continue to try and push for the second phase. But getting Netanyahu to agree to pulling all of the Israeli troops out of Gaza and the permanent ceasefire, which is what Hamas has always demanded, is going to be very, very tricky. And it becomes more so because there are, you know, less hostages alive. You know, we’ve seen live hostages coming over the last couple of weeks and now and tragically, we’re going to see bodies starting to come out.
Gideon Rachman
Do you think Hamas will keep a few hostages back, even some of the live ones, just as a, you know, a kind of disincentive to Netanyahu?
Andrew England
Yeah, well, I mean, after the first phase, they’ll be left with the male soldiers. And I’m told that there are those that are alive. So they will have those hostages. It’s always been the question of how does Netanyahu weigh this? Does he say we must make concessions to Hamas to get the remaining hostages out or we will get the hostages out through a military force, which until this deal was agreed, was the line he took and he took it despite pretty strong pressure from the hostage families and people within his own security establishment. It serves his political interest. And he would insist that through military pressure we’ll get them out. So it’s pretty bleak.
Gideon Rachman
That was Andrew England of the FT. The history of Iraq does at least demonstrate that countries and peoples can rebound from devastating and tragic wars. When I met President Rashid of Iraq a few weeks ago, he began our conversation by emphasising to me that the idea that his country is still wracked by conflict is now out of date.
Abdul Latif Rashid
We don’t have conflicts in Iraq. This is a myth. Yes, we had conflicts. We had serious conflicts — wars, invasion, sanctions, terrorism the bloodbaths a few years ago.
Gideon Rachman
So the country’s at peace as far as you’re concerned?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Stability and peace, both. And we enjoy it.
Gideon Rachman
So Isis and so on is that problem completely over?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Isis is not over everywhere but is over in Iraq. We fought for a number of years against Isis and they caused a lot of damage, casualties, killing, destroying in Iraq. And before Isis, we suffered from internal terrorism. But I’m glad to see this is over. And we are all now concentrating on improving services for the people, repairing infrastructures, rebuilding towns and villages and housing projects. Caring about education and health. And we have improved our relationship with all our neighbouring countries and all the regional countries and even with the international community.
Gideon Rachman
So if Iraq has finally achieved, as you say, internal peace, but everything’s connected in the Middle East or a lot of things are connected, are you worried that you might get spillover now?
Abdul Latif Rashid
We have recovered in Iraq but obviously, the conflicts and the troubles in the Middle East can overspill anywhere in the Middle East. We are all interconnected in almost everything. The borders in the Middle East are only about 100 years ago, and they were drawn with a lot of problems in these borders. But I’m glad for Iraq we are going in the right direction and we have corrected most of the conflicts which we had. Now we have a government. We have regular periodical elections, national election, local elections, and representatives of the nation, they assemble and they take decisions on legislation.
Gideon Rachman
And how would you characterise our relations with Iran?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Our relations with Iran is very good. That through its neighbours we have about 1200km of border. We have nationalities on both sides, the same nationalities on both sides. We have the same religion. We’ve shared history. We share culture. We share traits. So relationship is good. And Iran has helped us when we desperately need it during dictatorship. We had at least 4mn refugees in Iran. I was in London when Halabja’s bombed with gas. Nearly five- or 6,000 people were killed. Large areas of the country were destroyed. We lost nearly 6,000 villagers in Kurdistan. The only country which opened the door for us was Iran.
Gideon Rachman
And Iran’s relations with the west are terrible.
Abdul Latif Rashid
Not always.
Gideon Rachman
OK, well with the US. And there’s an active debate in America about whether they need to bomb Iranian nuclear facilities. So how do you maintain a friendly relationship with the United States and with Iran at the same time?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Well, we are independent countries. We can choose our friends in the world and have good communications and good relationships with them.
Gideon Rachman
But are you worried? You know, obviously, we’ve seen the first direct exchange of fire between Iran and Israel. And there is now speculation that Trump is at least going to ramp up pressure on Iran.
Abdul Latif Rashid
Well, I hope not, because even Iran has realised that it’s better to have good relations with international community.
Gideon Rachman
And what do you make of the fall of the Assad regime in Syria? Is that positive for Iraq or not?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Well, we have always supported the Syrian nation and the Syrian population. Syria is very close to Iraq and we have always had good trade, even political relationship with the Syrian people. But unfortunately, Assad created the turmoil in Syria and it had isolated Syria, not only himself, the entire Syria from the international community. Economic situation was bad. Conflict in Syria was happening on a daily basis and really Syria had good opportunities to correct the path, but he didn’t. We advised him many times that he should have election. And he should listen to what the opposition and what different groups see in Syria. But unfortunately, he didn’t. Now we have a new administration in Syria. From what we hear, they express positive policies. But what will happen in reality? We are waiting to see.
Gideon Rachman
And are you worried? Because, as you said, the Isis threat has been dealt with in Iraq but there are a lot of Isis prisoners in Syria.
Abdul Latif Rashid
Even on the border. I’m worried about it. We have sealed our border towards Isis. But this is one of our concerns. And the other concern which we have about the Syrian present regime is that we want all the sections of Syrian society, Syria public, to participate in the new government of Syria.
Gideon Rachman
Are you worried as a Kurd, the Kurds in Syria are going to be squeezed now with the Turkish becoming more powerful and so on?
Abdul Latif Rashid
The worry is there. Initiations we spent by the Kurdish leadership in Syria has been very positive. We have contacted the new administration and they have expressed their willingness to become an active part of civil society. But they have recommended that the government should recognise all the sections of Syrian society and give all sections of Syrian society their rights.
Gideon Rachman
And as for the north of Iraq, are you concerned that Turkey might become more assertive towards the Kurdish region?
Abdul Latif Rashid
I admit so. They are positively there. And the British forces, they are still part of the multinational forces. They know it. There is excursion in the Iraqi Kurdistan almost on a daily basis.
Gideon Rachman
Is that relatively recent that they’ve stepped it up?
Abdul Latif Rashid
No, it has been there for years, maybe.
Gideon Rachman
But do you think they may become more ambitious or more aggressive now?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Well, I hope not. But obviously their presence in northern Iraq or Iraqi Kurdistan is obvious. And now they have started influencing the decision in Syria.
Gideon Rachman
And forgive me if I’m getting the details wrong, but there are residual American forces, I think, still in Iraq. But the plan is for them to leave.
Abdul Latif Rashid
Well, they are part of the multinational forces. They are there on an agreement with the Iraqi government. And this agreement is based on discussions between the two sides, the Iraqi government and American government. But their presence and leaving Iraq is based on mutual understanding between the Iraqi government and Americans.
Gideon Rachman
And do you think in the current situation it’s still a good idea for them to leave, given how much instability there is?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Well, we haven’t asked them to leave immediately. They have some time to stay in Iraq. And after that, it will be reviewed.
Gideon Rachman
And you said Iraq is now at peace. But how stable is the balance between the various groups that were fighting each other, between, crudely, the Sunnis, the Shias, the Kurds?
Abdul Latif Rashid
None of them is true. The Iraqi people were fighting terrorism. The Kurds never fought the Iraqi people. They are fighting dictatorship. So this unfortunately, has not been very obvious, not very clear for many European media.
Gideon Rachman
And do you think another misunderstanding then is that it’s often said that, well, one of the ironies of the Iraq war was that Iraq ends up very close to Iran and some even say, you know, with Iran, the most influential country?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Apart from a period when Saddam was in power and Iraqi forces fought Iran, and that war went on for nearly eight years, there has always been a close relationship between Iran and Iraq, and that close relationship will remain.
Gideon Rachman
Is it an equal relationship?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Yes, because we consider and we emphasise on that with every regional country, even with the multinational forces, even with the outside forces, even with any delegation or group from Tehran, that we are an independent country and our decision’s based on our benefit of the nation. We have a parliament of 330 members which is in charge of legislation in Iraq. And then we have a government which has again been chosen and accepted by the people. And we have the president, which has again been chosen by the people.
Gideon Rachman
So that brings me to a question. It’s now commonly accepted in the US that the Iraq war was a mistake and it should never have happened.
Abdul Latif Rashid
No, we don’t think it was a mistake because the entire population of Iraq want to get rid of the regime and we sought the help and assistance of international community, including European countries Britain, France, Germany and at the same time, the United States. As far as we are concerned, getting rid of Saddam Hussein or overthrowing Saddam Hussein was absolutely necessary for Iraq and for the region as well. Chaos in the region, instability of the region and at the same time hurting Iraqi people. There were sanctions on Iraqi people. There was torture among the Iraqi people. We had large number of mass graves. We had large number of population living outside. And nothing could have been done in Iraq without the authority of the dictatorship. From that point of view, no. I think we are grateful for the help which we received from Britain, from the United States, from other European countries.
Gideon Rachman
So those people in the west who say was a mistake.
Abdul Latif Rashid
Let them say it, not me.
Gideon Rachman
Could it have been done better?
Abdul Latif Rashid
I’m sure. I think there were some mistakes after the overthrowing of Saddam. Not before, after.
Gideon Rachman
We should probably get back to the present day. So the other conflict that’s been obsessing everyone in the region is Gaza. What do you think, firstly, of the ceasefire you have for. Is it going to last?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Well, I’m very glad about a ceasefire. But really, this ceasefire, unfortunately, was too late. In Iraq, and I speak for everybody in Iraq, we fully support Palestinian rights for creating their own country and for self-determination. And we condemn all the action which has been taken by Netanyahu on Gaza, on West Bank, on Lebanon, on many places. I think there was no need for killing so many children, so many women, so many elderly people. It has come to 60,000. And I think the international community is responsible. We should have stopped it. We are talking about civilisation. We are talking about human rights. We are talking about self-determination. Yet in front of our eyes, 50-, 60-, 70,000 people were slaughtered and entire Gaza buildings, infrastructures, services, which . . .
Gideon Rachman
OK. You know, I haven’t been to Iraq. So you tell me what I should know. What do you want to tell the outside world?
Abdul Latif Rashid
You should come and visit Iraq and see it for yourself. And you can go to different governments and see the amount of war is carried out during the last few years and the problem of war.
Gideon Rachman
So is part of the message that you want to get across that people who still think of Iraq as a zone of conflict are wrong?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Very much.
Gideon Rachman
Are you getting a lot of foreign investment yet?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Yeah.
Gideon Rachman
Where mainly from?
Abdul Latif Rashid
Well, mainly from Gulf states — Saudi Arabia, Qatar, many other countries. European countries on oil, on large projects, on irrigation, on water supply. You get almost every day large delegations from European countries, from North America.
Gideon Rachman
China?
Abdul Latif Rashid
China, of course, they are very much involved.
Gideon Rachman
So do you think, oddly enough, Iraq is now a relatively hopeful story in the Middle East?
Abdul Latif Rashid
I think the entire Middle East will be in a peaceful state if there wasn’t outside interference.
Gideon Rachman
But on the other hand, you said outside interference in Iraq was a good thing.
Abdul Latif Rashid
Well that, we asked for it. That’s not interference. That’s help.
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Gideon Rachman
That was President Rashid of Iraq, ending this edition of The Rachman Review. You also heard from my colleague, Andrew England. Thanks for listening. Who knows what will have happened by next week, but do please tune in.